Liz Hirsch and Joshua Smith at 839, Los Angeles, courtesy Jonas Hirsch

 

839 is a newcomer to the Los Angeles gallery scene, co-founded by writer and educator Liz Hirsch and artist Joshua Smith in their Hollywood home. Liz Hirsch is an Assistant Professor of Contemporary Art/Media Studies at Otis College of Art and Design and was the Andrew W Mellon Curatorial Fellow at Dia Art Foundation for 2016-17. Joshua Smith is an artist known for both his serial monochrome paintings and his political activism—including advocating for Frieze New York to use union labor and proposing a gun violence amendment to repeal the Second Amendment. Smith’s Untitled (Speakers), a set of stacked speakers playing a continuous loop of Roy Orbison’s “Only the Lonely” is part of Dikeou Collection. 839 will kick off its program with a group show “Summer 24” opening June 29.

Interview by Brandon Johnson

 

Your gallery will be joining an expanding scene of commercial spaces in Los Angeles over the last few years, including locations for many bluechip galleries from other cities around the world. Can you comment on the current Los Angeles gallery scene and how yours fits in?

LH: Well, we want to acknowledge that we’ve only lived in Los Angeles for seven years, but it feels like home to us now. It’s funny because when we moved to LA from New York we ended up renting in a corner of Hollywood that already had a few established galleries like Tanya Bonakdar, Regen Projects, and Various Small Fires. That wasn’t really intentional, but it’s been a nice aspect of the community to date and it makes our home, where we’re opening the gallery, a convenient location for people who are going out to see shows. You’re right though about the explosion of blue-chip galleries in the area recently. While it is a nice thing for the public to have more opportunities to see art and ostensibly for artists to have increased opportunities to show, it’s tragic how high baseline rents have gotten in the city and how the region is simultaneously losing working-class institutions like the 99 Cent stores, of which the Hollywood location was so famously photographed by Andreas Gursky in the 1990s.

 

Installation view, Summer 24, 839, Los Angeles, courtesy 839

 

839 will be in your home—a practice with its own lineage. Are there any home galleries past or present you’ve looked to for inspiration? And what are the idiosyncrasies and/or challenges to such an approach?

LH: There is a fascinating tradition of home galleries that have informed our approach: Alfred Steiglitz and 291, Betty Parsons, and Leo Castelli. The intimacy of the experience of seeing artwork in a home is I think so crucial. When I first met Joshua he started organizing Apartment Show with Denise Kupferschmidt, which hosted about a dozen projects, sited directly within people’s homes, mostly in Brooklyn. It was always a thrill to get to peer inside another person’s habitat and see the way a work could activate an ordinary space. Joshua had also run a gallery out of a historic duplex in the Woodbridge neighborhood of Detroit, called Commonwealth. There’s also the townhouse gallery that has been so formative. I remember going to see a David Hammons exhibition at L&M Arts uptown in Manhattan and just being blown away by both the paintings and the setting. We’ve also loved that about a place like Brussels, for example, where so many of the galleries are situated in what once would have been single family homes. Today there are exciting examples of this approach. Adam Marnie is running F out of his home in Houston. I think the biggest challenge involves the balance of the public and the private. We want to welcome visitors into our world while also maintaining a degree of privacy.

JS: And the process of converting domestic spaces into gallery spaces, let alone ones that can exist simultaneously, is a really substantial undertaking. I keep saying it’s like making French press coffee, but with your house.

 

Your first exhibition is a group show featuring artists mostly based in Los Angeles and New York, many of whom the gallery will represent. Is this meant to be a taste of the program? How did you find these artists?

JS: Totally. The first show will include all the gallery’s artists that we’ll be representing initially alongside a handful of others we really admire. The artists are largely culled from old friends of ours from our time in New York, where we both lived for over ten years, and from our time in LA since 2017. Two of the artists who will be in the show, Abdolreza Aminlari and Kyle Knodell (who recently moved to Berlin) went to the same art school that I did in Detroit and so I’ve been friendly with both of them for over twenty years. Nichelle Dailey is an amazing photographer based in Los Angeles who we met through her work with Lux magazine. Liz worked with another of the artists, Andrés Janacua, for a few years at Los Angeles City College, where he is a beloved studio instructor. One hope with the space and with the group show is to impress upon people that you can make your own communities or your own little worlds.

 

Joshua Smith, Untitled, 2021, acrylic on canvas, 45.5″ x 21.5″, courtesy the artist and 839

 

Joshua, we first came to know you as an artist. How does that role influence the perspective of this gallery project?

JS: My experience as an artist makes me think we’ll feel a stronger-than-usual responsibility to uplift and support 839’s artists. We feel strongly about providing our represented artists with the opportunity for repeat exhibitions, opportunities, etc. We won’t tolerate political conservatism at 839 and will maintain a safe space for outwardly progressive and left-wing artists to express themselves, which we feel is of utmost importance to the field and the wider world in this time of genocide, rising fascism, and the attendant censorship of intellectuals that accompanies both.

 

Clearly art of a political nature will be featured in the space. Are there any other themes to be found across the roster of artists you will be showing?

LH: The artists we’re working with are all exploring form in interesting ways. There’s a lot of abstract work among our artists. Natalie Lerner, Andrés Janacua, Olivia Gibian, Joshua, and to a certain extent the estate of Joshua Caleb Weibley, all make work that uses flat-grounded devices. We probably tend toward minimal and abstract painting and drawing. The photographers we’re working with, Nichelle Dailey and Kyle Knodell, are both kind of classic photographers in a Magnum sense. Both are concerned with people and both make work that is particularly grounded in the places they are made. The estate of Joshua Caleb Weibley represents probably our most overt conceptualist on the roster, but the brainy, humorous spirit behind the work feels a little to us like the heart and soul of the gallery. I often think our artists are artist’s artists. They all have groups of passionate followers especially among other artists.

 

 

Olivia Gibian, Untitled, 2018, watercolor, gouche, and pastel on paper, 30″ x 22″, courtesy the artist and 839

 

Your first solo show in September will be Olivia Gibian. I’m not finding a lot about her online. Can you tell us about her work?

JS: I think the artist Ada Friedman introduced us to Olivia and her work something like ten years ago in New York, when we all lived there. Since then, Olivia moved to LA and we did too. She makes beautiful, largely abstract paintings on paper and occasionally canvas that summon imagery of ponds, flowers, and rocks. Many of the works are made at a very intimate scale, like 5 x 7 inches. The effect is ethereal and transporting. The piece that we’re including in the first group show is a larger framed painting on paper evoking plants and water in rich tones of black, blue, and white. We had imagined that we’d predominantly be showing Olivia’s smaller paintings on paper in September, but she told us the other day that she might be crafting up something new for this show in particular. So maybe we’ll see a little combination of the two. Olivia’s also an accomplished floral designer and we’re all into the idea of uplifting this wing of her practice as well. And she’s a budding surfer! Last, we’re also in a band together called Never Work with her and her husband, Nick Earhart. Olivia plays keys and does vocals. I think people, especially artists, are going to be really excited to see Olivia’s show in September.

 

 

Darrin Alfred, photo by Eric Stephenson, courtesy of the Denver Art Museum

 

As Curator of Architecture and Design at Denver Art Museum, Darrin Alfred has the esteemed position of overseeing one of the largest design collections in the United States. From exquisite 18th-century French furniture to Mid-Century American classics, to rock posters of the psychedelic ‘60s and architectural drawings drafted with pinpoint precision, to say the collection is “vast and varied” would be an understatement. Alfred’s curation eloquently siphons specific points of interest from this incredible collection to create exhibitions that educate visitors about the histories and the people that designed the objects and spaces we live with and use every day. His most recent exhibition at the museum, “Biophilia: Nature Reimagined,” is a stunning example of his ability to present the diverse beauty and wonderment embodied within the design realm, and how it all stems from Mother Nature, the greatest designer of them all. “Biophilia” is on view through August 11, 2024.

Interview by Hayley Richardson

 

 

You became Curator of Architecture and Design at the DAM in 2007 and the department/collection has grown immensely since then, especially with the newly renovated and expanded design galleries in the museum’s Martin Building. How has your vision for the collection and curatorial approach in the galleries changed with this new space?

My vision for the Architecture and Design collection has evolved significantly since I joined the DAM in 2007. The newly renovated and significantly expanded design galleries in the Gio Ponti-designed Martin Building have been a transformative milestone for the department, allowing us to reimagine how we present and engage with design. These spaces offer a dynamic platform to showcase the breadth and diversity of our collection, emphasizing the interconnectedness of design with contemporary life and culture.

Our approach embraces a more thematic and narrative-driven format. The inaugural display, “By Design: Stories and Ideas Behind Objects,” exemplifies this shift by illustrating the abundance and versatility of design approaches across the globe. This evolving exhibition explores fundamental questions such as how design comes into being, who creates it, and for what purpose, highlighting the diverse motivations and inspirations behind objects. By showcasing works that range from handcrafted to digitally fabricated and emphasizing the social, functional, and experimental aspects of design, we aim to spark a deeper understanding and appreciation of how design shapes our lives.

Furthermore, the expanded galleries provide an opportunity to collaborate more extensively with contemporary designers, bringing their innovative works and perspectives into the museum. This allows us to present a living, evolving collection that reflects current trends and challenges in the design field. Ultimately, my vision is to make the Architecture and Design collection a vital, thought-provoking, and accessible resource that inspires and educates visitors about the transformative power of design.

 

 

Your current exhibition “Biophilia: Nature Reimagined” opened last month in the museum’s Hamilton Building and it incorporates an array of work centered on creative design—from interior design and architecture, to high fashion, fine art, and smart technology. You’ve said that it’s been ten years in the making. The world is very different than it was ten years ago, as is the museum, so I am curious how the concepts and your ideas may have evolved over the last few years considering the fast-paced development inherent within the fields represented in the show.

“Biophilia: Nature Reimagined” has indeed been a project many years in the making. When I first conceived the idea ten years ago, the concept of biophilia—popularized by Edward O. Wilson—served as the foundation. Wilson’s theory posits that humans have evolved to be deeply intertwined with the natural world, and the exhibition aims to explore and celebrate that connection through the lens of contemporary architecture, art, and design.

The COVID-19 pandemic underscored the urgent need to reconnect with nature, prompting a reevaluation of the exhibition’s concepts. It was during this time that the exhibition’s three themes—Natural Analogs: Form and Pattern, Natural Systems: Processes and Phenomena, and Topophilia: People and Place—came into sharper focus, emphasizing the profound impact of nature on our well-being. Through the wisdom and beauty of the natural world, artists, designers, and architects reveal the path to reconnection, inspiring us to engage with nature for ourselves and future generations.

 

 

Living in Colorado we have the great fortune of being surrounded by spectacular natural beauty. What is your personal relationship with nature like?

My personal relationship with nature is deeply rooted in my upbringing. My parents nurtured my appreciation of the natural world from a very young age, instilling in me a deep respect for its beauty and complexity. This connection to nature has been a constant throughout my life, evolving as I moved to different places. Living in San Francisco, with its close proximity to nature’s wonders, further deepened my appreciation for the outdoors. Since relocating to Denver in 2007, I’ve found solace and inspiration in the breathtaking landscapes of Colorado and the Intermountain West. Whether hiking in the mountains or simply enjoying the local parks, I try to spend as much time as possible outdoors. Nature is not only a source of inspiration for me but also a place of solace and rejuvenation.

 

It was recently announced that the Denver Art Museum is set to merge with the neighboring Kirkland Museum of Fine & Decorative Art, which is sure to bring a plethora of new opportunities for both museums and their patrons. What does this merger look like for your department in the future?

The Kirkland Institute at the Denver Art Museum is envisioned as a distinct department, closely linked to the existing Architecture and Design department, and poised to create synergies with other departments and collections within the museum. The Denver Art Museum now boasts one of the largest collections of design in the country, comprising something like 50,000 pieces in our joint holdings.

Each institute at DAM has its own unique character, and the Kirkland Institute brings to the table a physical facility, an established program, and an enthusiastic audience. As we continue to merge operations and integrate both museums, we look forward to sharing more detailed plans with our community. This is an exciting opportunity for growth and collaboration, and we are eager to explore the possibilities ahead.

 

What is coming up next for the Architecture & Design department? Do you have any projects or events you can share or allude to for 2024 or beyond?

In terms of what’s coming up next for the Architecture and Design department, we have several exciting projects planned for the remainder of 2024.

One of the highlights is an upcoming display titled Contemporary Furniture Design from Africa and Across the African Diaspora, which will be part of By Design: Stories and Ideas Behind Objects in the Martin Building’s Amanda J. Precourt Galleries on Level 2. This series of ongoing thematic installations is drawn primarily from our architecture and design collection. Africa is a vast and varied continent, and its diaspora spans the globe. Design from these various communities defies a singular narrative or aesthetic. Beyond mere functional furniture, these objects convey the richness and diversity of designers in highly individual ways. Each of these works tells an evocative story, that transcends its physical form.

We’re also working on a new display showcasing a selection of work to be gifted to the Denver Art Museum by Denver-based glass art collectors Judy and Stuart Heller. It will be located adjacent to the Reiman Bridge on the 2^nd floor of the Sie Welcome Center. Glass has been used as a form of artistic expression since ancient times. The materiality of glass has been continuously transformed by artists from around the world, from the expulsion of glassmaking from Venice to the island of Murano at the beginning of the Renaissance, to the Studio Art movement which began in the United States during the 1960s. Today, contemporary glass art is an expansive field that blends historical techniques with current interests, resulting in stunning and diverse artworks.

 

Michael Ashkin “Here, in the desert” installation at FOYER-LA (photo: Jeff McLane)

 

FOYER-LA’s current project, “Here, in the desert,” unites photographs, sculptures/models, and writing by Michael Ashkin. The work grew out of Ashkin’s lifelong fascination with the New Jersey Meadowlands. Between 1993 and 2000, Ashkin wandered the area and began thinking of the Meadowlands as a site of “found gardens” where hidden struggles within our landscape revealed themselves. With this in mind, he photographed the Meadowlands and built sculptural landscape models using this source material.

Interview by Connie Walsh

 

I am curious about your choice to often not include humans in your images—how do you see our role as individuals or as a society with the production and transformation of space and how do we distinguish between nature and not-nature/man-made? Is that a distinction that matters to your work?

I generally don’t include humans for a number of reasons. I tend to see landscapes as themselves personified or extensions of us; even if we don’t see people, the traces of all their present and future sufferings and dreams are layered into the landscape. I have sometimes thought of this as a broader extension of Marx’s expression “dead labor.” I also don’t trust myself to photograph people properly, especially close up; I am never sure what is being expressed in the photograph and who is doing the expressing.

I don’t believe the nature/not-nature dichotomy applies. On a perceptual and epistemological level, everything is and has always been anthropomorphized—nothing natural can be represented or known in an unmediated manner. Furthermore, the human has insinuated itself into every relationship between objects on this planet; even objects that appear to be natural (say a rock) cannot exist outside the framework of human intervention. Real estate, the nation state, the park system, the threat of nuclear holocaust, pervasive post-WWII atmospheric radiation are just obvious examples. Nature exists for me but in an unknowable sense—it exists beyond our formulations and is ultimately connected to some divine logic that encompasses absolutely everything. I see my photographs and sculptures as being a place where the relationships between our provisional formulations of natural law and historical human behavior play out. These are places where we can re-envision and re-intuit based on the best of our partial knowledge.

 

I am also thinking about others’ descriptions of your work—“depicting marginalized, desolate landscapes.”

Everyplace is desolated (or marginalized), the question is in what way. By that I mean that there are unknowable corners and outskirts to every object.

 

Michael Ashkin-“Here, in the desert” installation at FOYER-LA (photo: Jeff McLane)

 

What makes the space seem marginalized—is it forgotten-frozen in an in-between state or moment, neither depicting an ever-changing natural state nor depicting a built state in its glory?

I agree, that it is say: forgotten, but by whom and for how long. I believe that on a deeper level, we know everything; we just need to be reminded of it.

 

I want to go back and look at your images from your time exploring Berlin. Somehow, I feel a sense of nostalgia, but I am not even sure what I mean by that. What do you see when looking at these images: do they represent/explore an in-between moment?

In Berlin perhaps the nostalgia you sense is, if I am lucky, the sense of history buried within the present. Of ruins no longer visible exerting their presence. At least that is what I felt when I took the pictures. The rubble, the barriers, hardened building facades, fences, and obscuring trees gave me the impression of a landscape in which forces were still struggling in seeming stillness and silence. I say seeming because the seismic forces of subterranean history persist and their coincidence can produce events that, for us, will be unexpected.

 

untitled images from the book There will be two of you (Fw:Books 2023)

 

You speak of violence—violent acts—and the idea of a haunting feeling; can you talk about this more? Who is being haunted and by what? Is it a feeling/tension you are trying to capture? Do you feel the photographs you construct expose violence/or violent acts and if so between what or whom? Is there some responsibility or evasion of and by whom?

If something is haunted, it seems to me, that means that something is being repressed. Perhaps every human decision involves some repression. Every choice involves violence to the extent that one route was taken over another. Entropy brings on a healing or scarring by means of a repressive forgetfulness. But that entropy, at least in the human world, is the result of a choice, political in nature, that is inherently violent. So the humans, their objects, and their landscapes are haunted by all past decisions.

 

For me, your images contain a representation of some sort of juxtaposition/struggle between nature and industrialization, but it feels almost poetic—like the two aspects/forces are trying to have a copacetic existence. Nature is reclaiming, growing out of the destruction—the industrial wasteland, trying to find a balance or a place to cohabitate.

I like that. Perhaps there are no stable objects, only forces at play, and all forces—at least how we see them—are both natural and human cultural/industrial.

 

Michael Ashkin-“Here, in the desert” installation at FOYER-LA (photo: Jeff McLane)

 

I have been thinking about Susan Stewart—the miniature and the gigantic—in terms of seeing your sculptural work adjacent to your photographic work. Somehow the models seem to feel to me as a representation of infinity/endless vast landscapes—expansive. The photographs feel intimate—even when printed large—at times claustrophobic. Which all feels a bit off kilter—thoughts on scale and your usage?

Very good question, I had never thought to compare them this way. And you are right. I know that I considered both the models and the photos to be contemporary “found gardens.” For me gardens, particularly the formal gardens of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, tried to reveal some image of truth about the relationship between man and nature. I was consciously trying to do something similar in both bodies of work, incorporating the ghost forms (and their negations) of those historical and idealized gardens.

On the one hand, the models were constructed “found gardens” and perhaps, to achieve their truth value, the need existed to show that they were representative extracts from a much larger space. For this the miniaturization of a vast space from which a small piece was cut proved useful. The border, which I placed exactingly for the sake of proper garden proportions, still needed to feel somewhat arbitrary in a landscape of sublime extension.

On the other hand, the photographs, as enframed “found gardens,” responded to a real topography, and the sublime proliferation of their internal logic required maintaining an internal claustrophobia that I could relentlessly repeat in variation from one photograph to the next, either in the form of a very large grid (as at Documenta) or in a long “walking” sequence (as in There will be two of you). The hope was that here truth value could be obtained by the repetition of photographic extracts which appeared to be, but actually were not, arbitrary.

It’s funny you’re mentioning that the larger photos seem claustrophobic. Oddly, they do seem simultaneously both more claustrophobic and infinitely extending than when they are small. Perhaps that is because when they get larger their logic appears to expand internally as more and more details, not discernable in the smaller prints, emerge.

 

Are you alone? How is the experience different when it is shared? What is the “unspeakable” in your writing? Did something/someone impose an end that you write of in the book or was it a natural ending—the walking with another. I am thinking about presence and absence—both literally with a lack of human representation in your photographs and sculptures and this feeling as a viewer that I feel a part of the represented morphing—the images feel still and yet they feel almost like a film still of a larger act—development/change/deterioration/evolution.

“Am I alone?” I guess the answer would be “yes and no,” or “yes or no.” Whether one or two enter the hanger is beside the point. The sense of feeling alone stretches over my whole Meadowlands experience, but, in actuality, through a series of irretrievable and alien selves. I began walking the Meadowlands to understand them and my relationship to them. But a unity of self and experience eluded me. All I have are the fragments: the images, language, memories, and memories of memories. In the story, “There will be two of you,” which ends the book, there is the momentary promise of unity, even as it dissolves.

 

Michael Ashkin-“Here, in the desert” installation at FOYER-LA (photo: Jeff McLane)

 

You could also here talk about time—the passing of time—and your choice of how to capture it and hold it expose both your experience of time accumulating through your repetitive journeys in this landscape and the environmental effect caused by time passing. Also, the treatment or understanding of time represented in the photographic work vs. the sculptures. For me, I feel like there is a passage/movement in the photographs where the sculptures feel static—like there is a frozen event.

This is an excellent point, but so difficult to answer. If I understand you, I can answer that I am striving to escape from linear time into something approaching a more eternal awareness. And by eternity, I mean a state where the past, present, and future co-exist. Do the sculptures do this because we, the observers, move bodily and temporally in the present around a frozen moment? And maybe the photographs do that because we continue, relentlessly, to pass through a landscape of “difference within similarity” for what seems like an unending day? Relentlessness and implied infinity have always seemed integral for the truth value of my work.

 

 

Since the early 1990s, Kerri Scharlin has examined her position as both the creator and the participant of her artistic practice. Whether placing herself as the subject (and commissioner) of bodies of work like “Interview” and “Kerri’s Coloring Book” which straddle the line between fine and commercial art, or painting surreal portraits of young girls and women with seemingly prominent yet vague societal roles, Scharlin maintains a strong connection to the rich and diverse concept of the feminine. “In Her Studio,” an ongoing series since 2014 and the nexus of her project in zingmagazine issue 25, distills Scharlin’s interests in the artistic process and the ever-evolving social dynamics of the art world.

Interview by Hayley Richardson

 

 “In Her Studio” in zing issue 25 features 16 paintings of prominent female artists in, as the title suggests, their respective studios. Is there a common thread between these artists that drew you to them?

I remember when I was a kid growing up in Miami, never feeling like what was in my general vicinity was all there was. I always needed to avail myself of ideas from books to broaden my world. I never felt like I had access to everything, I needed to feed my mind and surround myself with prompts in hopes of elevating my game.

Now, whatever happens to cross my path, if I’m drawn to it, I mark by including it in my ongoing project. There’s nothing systematic about it except that I’ve narrowed my scope to female identifying artists. It’s kind of like having a committee of good examples to remind me of qualities that I want to include in my work. Whether it’s Amy Sillman’s making and unmaking of her visible decision-making processes, Molly Zuckerman-Hartung’s wrestling her multi-directional desires into paintings, or Jessica Stockholder’s coherent forms that emerge out of the layering of divergent kinds of information, I employ their images and so many more to remind me of what not to forget.

 

Top: Kerri Scharlin, Jessica Stockholder in Her Studio, ink and gouache on paper, 6 in x 9 in, 2017; Bottom: Kerri Scharlin, Molly Zuckerman-Hartung, ink and gouache on paper, 6 in x 9 in, 2016

 

Your project statement indicates that you made these paintings out of a desire to be known and connect with these artists. Has that manifested in any way?

Since I’ve started the project, I’ve gotten to know some of the artists that I’ve included. Many I haven’t. When I had a show in 2019, a good number of the artists portrayed came either to the opening or the closing where we met. Having a public opportunity to connect with the work and those artists was wonderful, as the in-person experience is so powerful. Understandably, it can be a little awkward to introduce the project to people over social media.

 

Kerri Scharlin, Wangechi Mutu, oil on paper mounted onto canvas, 16 in x 20 in, 2018. Dikeou Collection

 

You have an appearance in another zing 25 project, “The Women’s Group: Early 1990s, New York City,” curated by Natalie Rivera. The project profiles 18 artists who engaged, socialized, and networked within The Women’s Group and how it impacted their practices during that time. It is interesting that both projects address female relationships in the arts and appear in the same issue. How has your approach to networking evolved during your career and what form does it take now?

What I’ve learned as I’ve gotten older is how necessary a connection to a community is for me. When I was younger, I felt competitive and now I rarely do. Friendships and the feeling of making this journey alongside others is a salve and in fact the thing that makes this chosen life worthwhile for me. If I hadn’t learned it already, Covid drove the point home.

Always having had the facility to make representational work that looks somewhat “accurate”, I knew that I was part of a club, I was an artist. But the question soon became what do I do with that facility and how do I shape it? What do I decide to make and what do I decide not to make? How do I narrow and organize all my impulses into a particular thing that is my mark, my signature, my contribution to the world? Only then will I potentially be part of a more exclusive Club. Or perhaps a club that I could create myself.

I didn’t just want to narrow down to a signature style but to concurrently express how it feels when the world presents so many options and the challenge of putting myself forward in a unique way. I want to show my difficulties with that exact thing and to interrogate that difficulty, that inherent vulnerability.  Some people are lucky enough not to have broken parts inside of them but I’m not one of them. I want to use that uncertainty as my lens to express my perceptions, the part that is looking for certainty and for identity and for, dare I say, acceptance.

 

Last year you did a residency at Yaddo in Saratoga Springs and Mass MoCA. How was your experience?

Residencies are another way of broadening my circle. Last year at Yaddo and Mass MOCA, having these small temporary communities, while not always the easiest thing for the introvert in me, expanded my boundaries in ways for which I’m eternally grateful. I have seen that it can be important and even feel intimate at times.

 

Thierry de Duve and Barry Schwabsky at Scharlin’s home salon

 

Salon audience

 

In November 2023 you hosted a conversation between Thierry de Duve and Barry Schwabsky which was published in a recent issue of Artforum. You’ve hosted such salons at your home/studio since 2016. What is the impetus/backstory of these events?  

The Salons have been a way for me to surround myself in an intimate environment with friends, a sharing of goodwill with no strings attached, inviting people into my home and studio and to showcase projects in the community beyond objects: musical performances, poetry readings, book launches and discussions, performance art. I would like for them to become more frequent.

 

What are you working on currently? Do you have any projects or events
you’d like to plug?

Currently I’m revisiting my own images of artists to extend and complicate my compositional vocabulary. I’m using layering to find surprises that interest me. I’m also making sculptures that complement the paintings. I hope to show the work soon.

 

spread from MOURNING

 

Lisa Kereszi is photographer, mother, and educator living and working in New Haven where she serves as Assistant Director of Graduate Studies in Photography at Yale School of Art. Her work has been exhibited at numerous institutions, including Whitney Museum of American Art, the New Museum, the Brooklyn Museum of Art, and she is represented by Yancey Richardson Gallery in New York City. She has had numerous projects in the pages of zingmagazine; “Drinking” (zing 9), “Night Light” (zing 16), “The Priory” (by Benjamin Donaldson, curated by Lisa Kereszi, zing 20), “Peepshow Creepshow” (zing 22), and “The More I Know About Women” (zing 24), and her work is also part of the Dikeou Collection. Here we discuss Lisa’s work in relation to printed publications—the recently published photo-book IN (Roman Nvmerals) and the forthcoming MOURNING (Minor Matters 2024) that will be launched at Printed Matter Chelsea on March 21 from 6-8pm and April 25-28 at The AIDPAD Photography Show.

Interview by Brandon Johnson

 

Your work has been the subject of numerous books and magazines over the years. What does the role of printed publications mean to you as a photographer, and in your experience are there any specific challenges or considerations to translate the work to these formats?

I think photography as a medium really lends itself to reproduction, whether it’s on the page, screen, wall, billboard, photo album, in someone’s pocket or wallet—after all it is definitely firmly rooted in Walter Benjamin’s “art in the age of mechanical reproduction.“ A print on the wall might need to be large and can easily be seen at a distance, and maybe even needs to be seen at a distance. But when a photograph is in a book, it is held in the hands, or at least placed on a table, but either way, it’s a very intimate experience. It is often a private interaction, too, not an encounter in the public space of a museum or gallery. Photography first gets introduced to us all in books, magazines and family photos (not photobooks, but non-fiction, informational books in childhood.) (Today, I guess that’s happening increasingly more often than not on screens of varying sizes.) Other than billboards and posters and ads, most people outside the art world probably aren’t looking at too many framed photos on museum walls, so having my pictures viewed up close and personal in book form, smaller scale, feels incredibly natural. I actually pre-visualized IN being smaller, like 5×7”, for some reason. And MOURNING is big, as far as books go, because the publisher wanted the book to echo the handmade grids I assembled out of 4×6’s, and she wanted to put out a consciously large book by a woman as a statement. Women never unapologetically say, “I know that thing doesn’t fit on your shelf: deal with it.”

 

spread from “The More I Know About Women” zing 24

 

More recently, the subject of your work has revolved around family. Two previous books, Joe’s Junk Yard (Damiani 2012) and The More I Learn About Women (J&L Books 2014) along with a project in zing 24 “The More I Know About Women” engage in the sphere of your father’s life. And now a new book MOURNING that addresses his death. Another recent publication IN is a collaborative photobook with photographs made by “two parents and one child” (yourself, Benjamin Donaldson, and Ottilie Leete). What has led to the shift of focus to family at this part in your career?

Well, I guess it’s actually always been there. I conceived of the junkyard book before 1998 and showed the work that Fall in my very first critique in grad school, saying as much about my plan for it to be a book. I put it on the back burner but made a push in earnest to finish most of the pictures between 2001-2003, during my family’s last few years in the junk business. The book sat on various publisher’s shelves, on and off, for years, finally being published in 2012. It was a long-term investment! The More I Learn About Women artist book came directly out of the research in the family archive that I did for the historical photos I used in Joe’s Junk Yard, after my father handed me a huge stack of albums that contained his own photos that were adjacent to the business—his pictures of cars, motorcycles and women. In 2013 I got pregnant and knew instinctively that I wasn’t going to be the creatively productive person I’d grown to be, so I created that book, which came out the same year my daughter was born, 2014. I was right because it would be a decade until another book came out. But in putting two books out, pretty much at the same time, I guess I made up for the “lost” time. The time wasn’t lost, just focused into something, or someone, else, and also spent becoming someone else—a parent. In fact, the unpublished work I made to help overcome post-partum depression, was also, in a way, about family, or at least reinventing myself as a photographer with a family of my own. It is called “Walking With Ottilie,” and is all work made on walks with my baby, then toddler. (The work sort of ended when she became mobile, and unable to keep in one place in a carrier or stroller!)

 

spread from “Drinking” zing 9

 

But the work of mine that went more widely out into the world looked like it was about things outside of myself and my experience growing up in the family that I was in. And it was—but it also wasn’t. The pictures of bars, nightclubs, strip clubs, cheap motels and disco balls is all about escapism. In fact, the work that is in the Dikeou Collection was made as a response to family baggage. That black-and-white series, “Drinking,” was from my college senior thesis, and focused on drinking and drug use. It was my way to try to get into the mind of an addict like my dad and any number of boyfriends. I was trying to understand it. Those pictures of people partying led directly into the work I started at Yale, which was later in the 2008 and 2009 books, Fantasies and Fun and Games. It was all still really about a kid trying to understand why people like her dad need to escape reality. It’s funny, but my mom solidly being there for us enabled my sister and I to thrive and to become artists, but my obsession creatively is not with her love and care and attention, but instead with the guy who was absent at the dinner table every night.

These two books now are less about all that oblique metaphor around escape, surface and fantasy, and more overtly about family—the one I grew out of, and which is getting smaller year by year, and the one I’m now in and am building with Ben and Ottilie. And the form, themes and way that these newer pictures were made all fit into my busy, working-parent lifestyle—pictures I outsourced to a trail cam, and pictures I made with an iPhone in and around my house with my nuclear family all within arm’s reach, them both co-authors.

 

Your father passed in 2018, and at the end of that year his black granite gravestone “keeled over backwards under mysterious circumstances” (to quote Marvin Heiferman’s introductory text to your forthcoming book MOURNING). How did this incident lead to the genesis of new photography (from what appears to be the trail cam mentioned above), and ultimately a publication?

Well, someone knocked over his gravestone not soon after it was mounted, sometime between November 2018 and New Year’s Day, 2019. It is possible that it was something (like a deer) coupled with uncured or bad mounting adhesive (yes, you wouldn’t believe it, but these days it seems a squiggle of epoxy assists gravity to keep a stone on the base.) But given the fact that I was locked in a pretty terrible battle with my aunt over my grandmother’s home and things (she had also died less than a year before), I had my suspicions. Of course, I couldn’t prove it, so I went to photography to try to get to the bottom of it—should it happen again. My sister is the one who was in town for the holidays and discovered it, so from a few hundred miles away, I enlisted her and her husband to pick up a trail camera at a sporting goods store and mount it, then my mom and step-dad to maintain it, stuff like the firmware update and changing the batteries.

My dad died in early February 2018, and the one thing I did have control over was to swiftly get a memorial up before the end of the year. (The marker has etched into it one of my portraits of him in his cherished 1956 pink Caddy—“like Elvis’s” he would say, although the King’s was a slightly different year and model, but I am splitting hairs.) So, I imagined that seeing his face looking back at them from the grave was a final straw for her or someone. Or maybe it was “just kids” and a teenage prank.

 

cover of MOURNING

 

I think the form of the book—those grid arrangements—was also my way of creating order in a sea of chaos. It’s bad enough to lose someone, let alone two people, and all the stuff that comes with dealing with the estates and grief and all of that. On top of that, to be locked out of my grandmother’s house (where he had a bedroom and a garage and backyard where he had kept full of his things), and to try to save any scrap I could grasp, became all-consuming for a year or so of my life. I was tracking down their belongings at pawn shops, consignment shops—even the free store, where my dad’s sister preferred giving things away rather than letting my own sister and I have any mementos. I also made a bunch of other grids of pictures of these material things I was searching for and feared lost, as well as other ordered collections of appropriated images.

All these grids are included in a bigger body of work about all of this family baggage and dealing with loss, and then about moving on from the family you came from and starting a new one. The work is entitled “Sunrise, Sunset.” As soon as I can come up for air, I will finish the series and the book dummy I have sitting on my desk here.

 

spread from MOURNING

 

MOURNING is a limited edition with handcrafted elements— board back with stab and thread binding. How did you and the publisher arrive at these material decisions for this content?

LK: During the pandemic, on Zoom, I showed this proto-dummy in loose print form to Michelle Dunn Marsh at Minor Matters Books, hoping she would want to publish it. (Michelle and I met in the Publications office at Bard College in the ‘90s, and she designed the junkyard book.) She zeroed in on the grids, and said she thought that that portion of the bigger project could be expanded on and made into its own thing—an artist book. So, she really was the one who quite literally pulled this “insert” type portfolio out of its bigger context, gave me the push and confidence to let it stand on its own, and then gave it life on the printed page. We toyed with an accordion-fold, thought briefly about a calendar-like format, but ultimately settled on something more like an album—a family album, whose color, shape, and form also echoes a grave marker or monument. So much of the aesthetic choices you are asking about were really collaborative and about me relying on her expertise and her own care and attention to the subject matter from her own experiences with grief.

To let her speak for herself, though, since this was so collaborative, Michelle says:

MDM: Lisa first showed me large pages where she’d taped photographs in grids. As we discussed the meaning of the work, and the forms the project could take, we tried a few different sizes, an accordion format, etc. But at some point, it felt like we’d overdone it, and lost the simplicity, beauty, and intention of what she’d originally created. So, we returned to the grids, and a similar scale to her artist’s book. Mourning has presence but is not unwieldy—you can hold this book in your lap and look at it, and that felt important. It is, after all, a twisted form of a family album.

I have a book from the early 1800s from Japan that is stab and thread binding, and I’ve always loved its visual vulnerability while knowing it is an enduring method of binding. That felt right for this body of work. Initially we wanted heavy board on the front and back, like two tombstones, but the front cover needed flexibility to function, so we went with a heavy paper, double-folded, and die-stamped the author, the title, and then the publisher’s name on the back board to create the physical indentation of letters. The book block, like the front cover, is scored, to relieve some of the pressure on the binding when a book of that scale and weight is completely open.

LK: As for the number of copies, 500 has been pretty standard for the number of each of my previous books—it’s an achievable sales goal for “Photoland.” Minor Matters has a crowd-sourcing model that requires presales that total the amount needed to go to press and print the book, and she usually sells 500 at $50 each. This book tested a higher price-point for it as an art object, since the grids I fashioned at home with 4×6’s and rubber cement are the exact same size as the book pages, so the book binds together replicas of the real thing I made. Selling 250 seemed like an attainable goal for this particular book: while many connect with the subject matter and the experimental use of a trail cam, I think there are others would also maybe not want to look at a bunch of low-resolution images that appear sort of artless and barely-composed, and which are about the death and sadness, to boot. But I hope the moments of surprise and light and life are uplifting, and express that life does go on.

 

cover of IN

 

IN is an experimental artist book of photographs made with, as you said, your nuclear family beginning at the start of the pandemic lockdown in March 2020 through Spring of 2021—a situation that radically changed the lives of many into a new more intimate domestic reality with which many of us can relate. Was this body of work and publication just a natural result for two parent-artists and one child-artist living together during this time? And on an editorial level how did it feel to select and share these personal photographs with the public in the form of a book?

Benjamin [Donaldson] also answered:

BD: The project that the three of us undertook separately and together grew from us each needing to perform an act that reflected our reality and made a trace, when we had no idea what others’ realities looked like. It now seems to be a recording from a deep well.

Our family existed in this bubble together, well-aware that there were other bubbles percolating alongside us—everyone caught in their own experience. These pictures now live and belong together, having been made within the confines of the Pandemic days. There were times when each of us went into our own selves, even given our proximity, and our individual picture-making was part of that expression of self under the pressures that many of us felt. It seems to me that it was the natural expression of a family unit living through a very particular historical moment.

The photographs in the book form return these individual experiences to the roaring blur of our small entirety within the larger sweep of Pandemic time. After having such a spare amount that could be communicated with those outside of the three of us (except through a screen), this book stands as a physical memento that can be shared—something tangible that reflects love, terror, and a deeply personal historical record.

 

spread from IN

 

LK: I suppose we naturally all reacted to the situation and tried to cope by, among other things, taking pictures. I honestly just used my iPhone to take pictures of food and flowers, documenting the ups and downs of meal preparation and the annual cycle of rebirth growth and then death and decay that is part of the backyard and garden ecosystem. I had arranged all of these into a book that was as long as IN, actually, in which I guided the reader/viewer through the year chronologically with paired images of a meal and plants. I punctuated the sequence with beach-combing finds, since that was my solace and escape. Ben made pictures intermittently with a “real” camera and lighting of the staged or noticed magical and mysterious moments in the lives of a strange little trio in a big, weird house full of interesting stuff to look at and interact with, dressing up, acting out scenarios and making stuff.

Our daughter was 5 in March 2020, turned 6, then turned 7, and she “wrote” a handmade, construction paper book every day in virtual public school. Sometimes she taped photos in, but she usually drew the illustrations. During classes, and really, all day, she took to drawing and fashioning cut paper houses, with many rooms, and big families occupying them. You see a few of those drawings in the book. She also was encouraged to take pictures with a little pink (then a red) point-and-shoot, something she previously would do when we went to New York, rode the train, drove around to look at holiday light displays, or to document her toys or her face or anything she wanted to remember or save forever. The pictures she was moved to take on her own during this period were still of her toys and Christmas lights, but her out-the-window pictures took on new meaning, and screens became such a big part of her life that she took screenshots, of sorts, too. She also turned the camera on us as well as her food.

 

spread from IN

 

We arranged the pictures into three separate volumes, and that is what we approached Roman Nvmerals with: a 3-volume set to be slip-cased. One of the publishers, the photographer Michael Vahrenwald, instinctively knew that was not the answer. (Though Ottilie would vastly prefer that her contribution remain as her own, individual publication, entitled, “Ottilie’s Picture Book,” like the Shutterfly dummy I made.) He asked me for prints of everything, and on his own mixed them all together into something that retained the general chronology, but that was far more interesting. The book as he saw it was not really about individual authorship, but instead the linked rings of a trio who were trapped on this ship in an uncertain storm at sea. Both publishers had a stake in using these unusual, collaborative images in ways that had not exactly been done before. The form followed the content.

 

spread from IN

 

So, in both books here, I relied on and trusted in the collaboration with the publishers, who I count as friends as well as peers in the “business.” That mutual respect and willingness to let go a little bit and collaborate and see what happens is ultimately what allows both books to succeed as experiments, I think. I collaborated with my family in both books, with a motion sensing remote camera, with the writers and the publishers as our editors and guides, and ultimately with the Universe. That’s what photography is anyway, for me at least—a collaboration with what’s outside of us and being open to chance and change.

And so far, the feedback has been good. Sometimes when you put something so personal out in the world, you just kind of shove it out there and let go and then close your eyes tightly and wait. The writer of one of the book’s essays, Cindy House, early on let us know we were making something relatable and valuable when she so perfectly summed it up, “Here is a book of images that are both familiar and strange. Everything is recognizable and nothing is. I know the bubble, the isolation, but this is not exactly my bubble. This book makes me feel like we were all lost at sea in our own boats, none of us in sight of each other out there on the open water, just trusting that the other ships were sailing in the same ocean somewhere.”